Helpful Resources for Making it Big in Korea
Weekly Podcast: The Korea 9.9 with Daniel (May 10, 2010) - "How to get Koreans to work with you and for you even though you’re different."
The KBC 9.9 with Daniel
"How to get Koreans to work with you and for you even though you're different."
Click the button to hear online our exclusive interview, or download the mp3 file to your computer (11:35 min. length).
Transcript of the Podcast:
Dave: Sure. I'm a commercial insurance broker here in North Texas, north of Dallas. My Korea connection is five years in the military there as an interrogator and briefer, but later on in the early 90s working with Samsung, and LG and others as a communications assistant trying to assist Koreans in their international marketing; language and otherwise.
Daniel: Very good. Dom, you're next.
Dom: Sure. My name is Dom Lavigne. I've been in Asia for about ten years. I was an executive director in American Chambers of Commerce and currently looking for new opportunities. My background and focus is mostly on government relations and trade promotion.
Daniel: Excellent. Lara?
Lara: Hi there. My name is Lara Tosh. I am a cultural and educational consultant here in South Korea. I'm just finishing up a contract with Lotte Hotels.
Daniel: Wonderful. And Simon.
Simon: Hi. I'm Simon Hoggett. I'm working as an investment promotion manager at the Daegu-Gyeongbuk Free Economic Zone. Basically, I'm in charge of the marketing efforts, from foreign and international perspectives, for the Free Economic Zone.
Daniel: Excellent. For myself, I'm Daniel Lafontaine as you all know. My specialty is being in Korea for the last ten years and working among every facet of society. From my perspective, Korea is an amazingly diverse, amazingly different society; different parts of the country and different ways of thinking, different levels of society, different ways of talking.
Let's go onto our first topic; let's go onto our main topic – how to get Koreans to work with you and for you, even when you're different.
Part of my experience, if you give me the chance to start it off… I had an employee in my small manufacturing company. I decided that to begin with, I would try and be his friend. When I decided to be his friend, we would talk, we would chat, then he would go do his own thing. What do you think Dave, or Dom, or Simon? – Simon especially, since you have lots of experience here. What do you think I did wrong?
Simon: You were the boss and he was the employee?
Daniel: Yes.
Simon: I think the key thing is, right away, establishing the fact that you're the boss. Korea is a very hierarchal society and there's a very clear line of how authority should be, so I think the main thing would be to establish that you're a boss.
Where we are, making friendships is very good. We have lunch every day and it helps create that Korean concept of jeong, and once you have that created it's very easy to get people to work with you. They feel very comfortable with you.
But, also, at the same time, there are certain lines that we don't cross with our boojang-nim, who's our manager, or our teamjang-nim, our team leader.
Daniel: Right. Lara, do you agree with that?
Lara: I totally agree. I totally agree. Jeong pretty much underlies everything that's going to happen. If you can get that going from the beginning and maintain it…
Daniel: Well, how do you develop jeong when you are – I tried to develop jeong. I knew the concept. Jeong didn't actually work too well for me. And the guy, he just did his own thing. He had been in the company for two years; I had just walked in as his boss and the jeong didn't develop too well.
Dom: Daniel, this is Dom. To a certain extent, with what Simon has talked about, this is not only in Korea, but I think anywhere else in Asia – I think, as a boss, you can be friendly to a certain extent with your staff, but you can't be friends with them. I think that's just never possible.
I think, yes, you can certainly go out to lunch and do things, but there has to be a clear division and I think in the staff case, he was probably looking to you basically as the boss. He's looking up to you and he's reporting to you, not necessarily someone who would be coming down to his level and being social.
Again, I've seen that in other places. I just wanted to add as well, the topic about getting Koreans to work for you even though you're different – and I guess that would be implying as an expat or a non Korean -- my view on working with people around the region is I don't necessarily think it matters where you're from as long as you make an effort to get into the local culture.
Get to know people, go out, have Korean food with your friends and not be very anti-social. Some expats will go into a country and simply wall themselves off and start counting down the days until they're going to go back home. In Korea, that's not going to work and I think in many other countries, it's not going to work either.
Daniel: What happens if you're – a lot of times, I've seen people who walked in, who want to be boss, who get into their office and they are the boss, then the Koreans say, “Eh, he's the boss. Why do I have to listen to him? He's taking my job.”
Simon: I think in that context, I think a good way would be to, where we talk about jeong would be – sometimes, you can't establish it up/down, vertically. But, if you try and go horizontally and talk to another manager at your level, he could be a very key ally in talking to those people and say, “Look, he's your boss. You have to do what he says.” And if someone from the Korean side who's a manager talks to them, they'll be much more willing to listen.
Lara: That is very, very, very true. I have had that exact experience.
Simon: Telling them that; exactly how to do things. It's all about saving face.
Lara: Why do they have to go outside the office?
Simon: Saving face. Someone can't be scolded in front of other people.
Daniel: Even Westerners don't like that.
Simon: Sure.
Daniel: What about just close the door, go into the boss' office, close the door and calmly explain it inside the office? Why can't they do that?
Dom: This is Dom. Let me just jump in. I think Dave had a few comments he wanted to add.
Dave: I think all of that is valuable interchange, but it is a matter of goals; the goals of the company and the enterprise, whatever that might be, that that's understood and then the underlying goals of the individuals that motivate them to get that job done.
The relationships in Asia versus the number signs for foreigners – and I think the definition of foreigners can be subdivided quite a bit out of Korea – but just to say we can't talk to these people; what are we trying to talk to? Is it a business thing? Is it a social thing? And they mesh here in Korea.
But what are our goals? And until we understand individually the company's goals and our own goals, then communication will not happen.
Daniel: Goals are very important, of course. But, here in Korea, what do you think is more important or do you think they're equally important? Goals and relationships or goals and personality – or goals, relationship, and personality? What is more important in Korea, in your estimation?
Dave: There's no question relationships are more important.
Daniel: What is the basic organizational aspect in Korea that's different from all other?
Lara: It's a different kind of education system. In any country, the education system reflects the values of the culture or the country that you're in.
Daniel: Exactly. I would love to throw this off to you.
Lara: It's part of the values.
Daniel: In preschool in Korea, and preschool in Canada, and America, and Europe, and China, and Japan, you have grade one to grade six and all the students – usually 80% of the students – grew up together.
In Korea, on the other hand, every year from grade one to grade six, you have to meet 40 new students every year. How do you think that affects this culture and how do you think that affects the child?
Dom: How is that possible?
Lara: Yeah, how the hell is that possible?
Simon: It's a huge matrix.
Daniel: It's major social. That's why I believe Koreans – it's always about relationships because in elementary school, they are so bombarded with making new friends, they become very strong at the relationship.
But after that, as they grow older, they don't want fly-by-nights relationships; they want something deep, strong, and lasting. I've had that problem too.
Lara: My husband's the oddity here. It must be the military service the men do.
Daniel: Exactly.
Lara: He's totally cool with going out and meeting other people.
Daniel: Very good. But, he's also in the workplace. He's also in the workforce, so he might like the network. His networking skills…
Lara: Oh, he's a cop. I don't know if we'd call that the workforce here. [laughs]
Daniel: Very good.
Dom: It's Dom. I just wanted to check. We had coined this the 9.9. I wanted to see if we fit our nine minutes and nine seconds.
Daniel: Exactly. Our nine minutes and nine seconds is just about up.
Lara: Really? I think we're over.
Daniel: We're pretty over. We're a little over it. I didn't have a stopwatch in front of me this time, so I guess I'll have to bring a stopwatch with me next time. Thank you very much for joining.
Dave: Thank you very much for having us.
Daniel: I hope all of you enjoyed your 15 minutes of fame, or your 15 minutes of talking. I hope some of you will come back on a regular basis. I hope all of you come back on a regular basis.
Lara: Sure.
Simon: Alright. My pleasure.
Daniel: Thank you very much. I'm Daniel Lafontaine at KBC website. I hope you enjoyed our discussion. Call in or leave a message on KBC. Thank you very much.
Replies to This Discussion | 이 토론에 대한 답글들
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Permalink Reply by Erik Cornelius on -
Daniel's topic was interesting but I have an alternate theory. Perhaps the fact that the employee didn't take Daniel's direction well had nothing to do with him being Korean and instead was a result of him simply being a poor employee.
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Permalink Reply by Steven S. Bammel on -
Erik, that brings up an excellent point, which is that in a Korean business environment, passive non-cooperation can be the Korean alternative to the Western approach of saying 'No, I don't agree with your approach". Not that it doesn't happen in the West, but direct confrontation is less common in Korea.
This then creates the need by the employer/boss to learn to read Korean "noonchi" and be extra certain of buy-in by subordinates before moving ahead. I have failed on this count on more than one occasion.
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Permalink Reply by Simon Hoggett on -
That is something that I have learned well also. (I give my share of "delaying requests" as well as receive)
Erik, can you clarify your comment for me? Do you mean that the employee's did not follow Daniel because he was mis-suited for the position (lack of leadership skills, cultural knowledge and managment know how) or that he did not fit in with the "Korean way" of doing things?
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Permalink Reply by Erik Cornelius on
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I mean to say that many expat managers are too quick to blame "cultural differences" when employees do not follow their directions. In addition to the possibility of cultural differences are the possibilities of a poor employee (or employees), poor management and many other things. I don't have enough information to assess what factor or factors were at play in the example that Daniel cited. Also, I don't mean to discount the idea that it could have been Korean culture. It just seems important to look at all the potential angles.
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Permalink Reply by Steven S. Bammel on
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I asked Lara Tosh for her feedback on participating this week's podcast and I want to share it here as I think her take on Korean office dynamics is insightful and the type of perspective we can all benefit from:
"I think it would've been more animated / cheeky -and FUN If we would've known each other / felt more comfortable with each other.
If you feel any of this would benefit any of the others, please share / post it wherever you'd like to (some of it MIGHT belong in the comments section^.~)
Personally, I felt as though I was perhaps way too self-conscious -it was my first time to participate in that sort of thing ...I didn't feel like enough of an "expert"...I guess this past year in Lotte has been way more "hard core old-school Korean" than I had originally realized -and THAT has taken it's toll on me^.~
I also relate to people & events MUCH differently than the other pannelists seemed to & I found it difficult to contribute because I wasn't able to pick up the ball in any of the exchanges (I was thinking along TOTALLY different lines with respect to the topic I didn't want to alienate anybody / everybody else).
My approach is human-centred (rather than situation-centred) ...EXAMPLE:
In Dan's first question about his employee, I would've (and should've -and next time I will -if allowed to participate again^.~) asked: "What was the employee like as a person?(The guy could've simply been an extreme introvert or had "issues") Was this the guy's first time to work with a westerner?(if so, he was likely scared shitless of Dan -for a variety of weak language-ego related reasons)" ...re: Jeong (정): it has NOTHING to do with going out & having beers -jeong is an internal connnection -it's the equivalent of "resonnating" with someone, or having "platonic chemistry" -there rarely is any jeong between members of a company (and I'm referring to among Koreans) ...in fact, the thing they seemed to be calling jeong is just a manifestation of "우리 -creation" (i.e.: doing "stuff" together socially as a team, so that trust is built among all, people feel more "at home" with each other & things go more smoothly in the office). That's not Jeong. It's establishing / fostering the good old concept of "우리" (woori) in a work environment -and we ALL know that Koreans are most comfortable in an "woori"-based / rooted context.
I wasn't sure if it would've been okay for me to say all of the above. I guess I was afraid of offending / scaring / excluding people.
I'm just not a typical "suit" -yes, it gets me in hot water sometimes -but I'm still alive & kicking & my life is definitely anything BUT boring^.~
I'd love to participate again -let me know if it's okay for me to NOT hold back & risk alienating others.
Lara"
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Permalink Reply by Lara Tosh on
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Thanks Dan ...I'm definitely in for future broadcasts^.~ ...I figured it was personal (hence all the questions -that I didn't ask) -definitely will jump in with questions in the future..
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Permalink Reply by vince rubino on -
Fascinating stuff and I hope we can get more in depth next time. Ten minutes and five people is too crowded. I suggest two or three people at 10 minutes. Each presenter has important things to say and they need time to get it across.
Related to the topic of this discussion I think the two greatest frustrations for me, as a Westerner working in a Korean organization, are lack of functional job descriptions and lack of a true hierarchy. Although the claim is that Asians are hierarchical, it's mostly just "show". Upper management passes by middle management with directions to rank and file employees. Without clear roles and job descriptions, there's really no true planning or structure. Everyone knows this and, hence, cooperation is hinged on good relationships and group perceptions. Major decisions are typically by consensus only and this is always a long process. I find it is very helpful to try accept it for what it is as there is strong resistance to change, especially from "foreigners". Even if you have been supposedly hired to create change and improvement, and given a nice title with supposed authority to do this, without building consensus at all levels of the organization it's next to impossible to succeed.
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Permalink Reply by Dave Woods on -
Very interesting, Vince...this might be a very good topic for a future discussion.
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Vince,
I agree: the "heirarchy" is just "show" in many respects ...ie: in my present work environment there are 2 "streams" of heirarchy:
- the REAL one, which is 4 "levels" deep (the owner & his 3 "kids", in order of age) -the "Royal Family"
- the one that the company employees follow, which is rather lengthy (I'm not even going to venture a guess as to the number of levels) -the "Government" ...the bureaucratic nightmare you very aptly described^.^
...in this corporation, the "Royals" trump the "Government" (I'm presently the (very well-liked & talkative) advisor to number 2 in the Royal Family -which, according to my hubby, makes me "the mafia boss" / "embedded spy" within the government. Am eager to finish my contract (next week is to be my last -it has been an interesting & intense year)^.~ "mob boss" is only fun some of the time!
It's been my experience / observation that most larger Korean companies subject employees to a "psychological test" essentially aimed at assessing either their "obedience" or their "tendency to think & act creatively or independently" and the company will hire based upon what they want to populate their ranks with (in the case of many companies obedience is highly valued ^.~) -they hire the people with essentially NO consideration for the duties they may need to perform, nor for each person's particular skill sets or preferences.
...A friend who is a counseling psychologist (Korean) within one of the majors confirmed the above.
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Permalink Reply by Steven S. Bammel on
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Following up on Daniel's comments in the discussion, I'd like to clarify about the way Korean schoolchildren are allocated to new classes as they move up from grade to grade.
There are 6-7 classes of 40 students each in my kids' elementary school. Each year that my kids move up a grade level, the class assignments are mixed up and so approximately one of 6-7 of their classmates from one year ends up in their class the next year. The decision of who goes to what class in the next year is not random; it is made by the teachers.
Once they get to middle school, they go into a lottery to be assigned at random to one of several local middle schools. In this case (at least here in Ansan), they would end up with a mostly new group of students.
By high school, apparently the school assignments are mainly done based on academic performance and some kids end up commuting a long distance to school.
So the purport of Daniel's comment, which is that Korean schoolchildren don't go through their schooling years with the same group of friends, is correct in my opinion.
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Permalink Reply by Dave Woods on
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I gotta give Daniel this, he's a heckuva editor. The podcast sounds much better than I thought it would. It is amusing how much he moved around. But it seemed quite seamless.
Including Lara's comments, it also seems like the topic should have been around the specific incident that Daniel experienced. The topics he sent out ahead of time did not make any specific mention of this incident.
But I think it works. I kinda like the idea of chatting about a specific incident from our different perspectives.
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Permalink Reply by Scott SeokWon Han on -
I graduated from an american business school, and have experienced both American and Korean business settings. I think both cultures have the same heirarchy, at least in my field (finance). There's a saying in our field that goes "Even if the whjole company is so busy that you don't have time to go to the bathroom, make sure that your boss doesn't feel that he is busy," which suggests how hard subordinates have to work to impress their bosses. this may be specific to my field, but I'm sure there are many other fields that are similar.
The difference between the two cultures is rather that Koreans are less explicit about their feelings and are very reserved. This causes them to look "passive" or "unfriendly," but in my perspective, Koreans are just as friendly toward their bosses as americans are.
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